Sputter and Pipe discoloration

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philharmonic
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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by philharmonic » Tue May 14, 2019 8:43 am

You need to buy a set of Iridium plugs to put in there, those look atrocious.
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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by ionbeam » Tue May 14, 2019 8:46 am

Color & soot don't look so bad to me, my Gen I ran fine and had worse color/soot than your plugs.

From the pictures the plugs look really worn out. How old are they? Take a look at a new plug, the center electrode should have a sharp edge all the way around and side electrode end should have a sharp edge facing the center electrode. It is much easier to initiate an arc between sharp edges than rounded edges. When the sharp 90° edges start to round it's time to replace the plugs.
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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by raYzerman » Tue May 14, 2019 9:57 am

What Alan said..... Plug pics 2 & 3 are what to look at, mostly the center ceramic insulator. They look not bad for colour, I've seen worse, but they could be lighter.... I vote for new ones too but doubt that's the underlying issue. IF something is telling the ECU to run rich/lean/erratic, again I'd check that ignition pickup wire around the right side timing cover, ensure it's not pinched. You might have to pull the fairing out and poke around, more likely it would be on top side but check it all. Normally, this would only be an issue if the right side cover has been off previously as in doing a valve check or CCT change kind of thing.
One other issue for cause of poor idling, the MAP sensor having rubber lube/crud in the vac port, or the hose(s) that provide that vacuum are plugged with crud... it's the black thing on top of the TB's with two screws and an electrical connector and a vacuum hose coming in the bottom. Inspect & clean it anyway. Rare issue, if the MAP sensor takes a sharp bump, the two halves of the housing can separate, can you spell obvious vacuum leak and poor function.. it will snap back together 99% of the time.

Edit add - For the ECU to think it's cold and run a richer mix, it would point to the intake ambient air temperature sensor in the airbox. Or again a pinched wire. That wire runs along the top of the airbox, then has been known to get trapped between the end cap of the airbox.... the one you have to remove to service the air cleaner (4 sheet metal type screws I think). You can route it towards the rear (hiding under the fuel tank/seat bracket).
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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by ericboutin » Tue May 14, 2019 10:41 pm

Hppants wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 8:20 am
Definitely some sooting and build up on those plugs. If they were removed from a 80s vintage GM small block, I'd say no problem. But I've seen enough FJR plugs and I can attest that your bike is definitely running rich. Since we don't have the same view of all of them, it's hard to say if one hole is the worst. However, the #2 (3rd from R) seems to be the worst from the angles I can see.

Have you run the diagnostics to see if you have any engine codes stored? While under the tank, check all wiring connections to sensors?
Yes and no new codes. I've been plugging and unplugging everything I can touch looking for some kind of messed up wires. Thanks for your insights, I will be getting new plugs for sure.
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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by ericboutin » Tue May 14, 2019 11:08 pm

raYzerman wrote:
Tue May 14, 2019 9:57 am
What Alan said..... Plug pics 2 & 3 are what to look at, mostly the center ceramic insulator. They look not bad for colour, I've seen worse, but they could be lighter.... I vote for new ones too but doubt that's the underlying issue. IF something is telling the ECU to run rich/lean/erratic, again I'd check that ignition pickup wire around the right side timing cover, ensure it's not pinched. You might have to pull the fairing out and poke around, more likely it would be on top side but check it all. Normally, this would only be an issue if the right side cover has been off previously as in doing a valve check or CCT change kind of thing.
One other issue for cause of poor idling, the MAP sensor having rubber lube/crud in the vac port, or the hose(s) that provide that vacuum are plugged with crud... it's the black thing on top of the TB's with two screws and an electrical connector and a vacuum hose coming in the bottom. Inspect & clean it anyway. Rare issue, if the MAP sensor takes a sharp bump, the two halves of the housing can separate, can you spell obvious vacuum leak and poor function.. it will snap back together 99% of the time.

Edit add - For the ECU to think it's cold and run a richer mix, it would point to the intake ambient air temperature sensor in the airbox. Or again a pinched wire. That wire runs along the top of the airbox, then has been known to get trapped between the end cap of the airbox.... the one you have to remove to service the air cleaner (4 sheet metal type screws I think). You can route it towards the rear (hiding under the fuel tank/seat bracket).
Ok I've got these on order....
NGK # 4218 Iridium Spark Plugs CR8EIX ---- 8 PCS

The old plugs have right at 20,000 miles on them.

I will do everything you've suggested here in the next couple days. We did do the CCT change out at one of Mr. Griff's Tech/Wrech days but that has been a couple years ago I believe and it has been running fine until now.

I will check the MAP and the temp sensor on top on air box also. Mr. Griff graciously donated his old Service manual so finding all these sensors etc that you're talking about is much easier now.

Thanks again for all the help. I need to get busy and will report back
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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by ericboutin » Mon May 20, 2019 4:27 pm

Hopefully this issue is resolved! But it was not without some tense moments! I'll jump to the end first....it appears the plugs were indeed the issue. I replaced all 4, glad I bought 8...more on that in a minute. Anyway as soon as I fired her up after plug change you could immediately hear a difference in the way she was idling and running. Throttle back to snappy revs, idle smooth, motor sounding silky smooth. That was last night. I took her out this morning and put 1/2 a tank of ethanol free gas in...(just in case I still needed to lift the tank) and took her out on a shakedown cruise. I didn't have time for anything super long just 25 miles or so. Anyway she is performing flawlessly! Night and day difference, honestly I wish I had done it sooner. So not sure how plugs ties in with the initial issues I'll be curious to hear what y'all s opinions are. The other thing that "appears to be better of course is the fuel consumption. I know it was only 25 to 30 miles but before it would have dropped a bar in that time. Anyway so far so good. I'll know definitively when I take her on a longer jaunt.

Ok I'll try to keep this tense part of the story short. This happened on the last plug install. These are brand new plugs mind you.

I was putting the last plug in and snugging it up when I felt a "snap" and the plug broke leaving the threads behind!! After a few choice words I calmed down enough to think of an ez out which as you can see worked. I was freaking out for a bit though, not gonna lie. Anyway I'm glad I ordered 8!

Thanks again for all y'alls help!ImageImage

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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by ericboutin » Mon May 20, 2019 4:30 pm

Dont know if this will work or not. Here's a quick clip of bike running last night. Excuse the extremely messy garage...my daughter just came home from college and there is crap everywhere!

//cloud.tapatalk.com/s/5ce30e5b92719/7804.mp4

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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by raYzerman » Mon May 20, 2019 5:55 pm

Interesting......... new sparkers should be installed until gasket contacts head and then 1/4 turn more, done. No torquey wrenches!
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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by FJRoss » Mon May 20, 2019 7:09 pm

I have never heard of a plug change making that much change in FJR performance. I'm wondering if you had a bad connection in one or more plug wires and it resolved itself when you changed the plugs - manipulation forced a better contact. This could also explain why you had a brief respite in the poor performance before you changed the plugs. If the issue returns, I might consider removing the wires from the sockets (they screw off) and trimming a quarter inch off the wire ends and then reinstalling the sockets. (Don't trim more than that or you may not be able to get the wires back onto the plugs). Yamaha didn't use any more plug wire than the bare minimum.

Also, have a look at the MAP sensor(s). On my Gen II, a blocked line to the sensor caused horrible performance - could hardly even keep it running. It threw a Code 14 but I'm not familiar with the codes for Gen I.
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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by ionbeam » Tue May 21, 2019 9:43 am

FJRoss wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 7:09 pm
I have never heard of a plug change making that much change in FJR performance. I'm wondering if you had a bad connection...If the issue returns, I might consider removing the wires from the sockets (they screw off) and trimming a quarter inch off the wire ends...Also, have a look at...a blocked line to the sensor caused horrible performance...
Or, perhaps one or more plugs got dropped at the store and had an internal electrode fracture, the tip porcelain and side electrode would have been protected by a cardboard sleeve. I do agree that if the problem comes back trimming the wire ends is a good idea.

The Gen I isn't as susceptible to blocked sensor lines or plugged sensors. The Gen I will run just fine with the intake air pressure sensor unplugged as a diagnostic. diAG will also let the intake air sensor be tested. If the intake sensor appears bad it can be swapped with the ambient air pressure sensor under the seat. (Gen II does not have this sensor.)

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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by FJRoss » Tue May 21, 2019 9:49 am

ionbeam wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 9:43 am
FJRoss wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 7:09 pm
I have never heard of a plug change making that much change in FJR performance. I'm wondering if you had a bad connection...If the issue returns, I might consider removing the wires from the sockets (they screw off) and trimming a quarter inch off the wire ends...Also, have a look at...a blocked line to the sensor caused horrible performance...
Or, perhaps one or more plugs got dropped at the store and had an internal electrode fracture, the tip porcelain and side electrode would have been protected by a cardboard sleeve. I do agree that if the problem comes back trimming the wire ends is a good idea.

The Gen I isn't as susceptible to blocked sensor lines or plugged sensors. The Gen I will run just fine with the intake air pressure sensor unplugged as a diagnostic. diAG will also let the intake air sensor be tested. If the intake sensor appears bad it can be swapped with the ambient air pressure sensor under the seat. (Gen II does not have this sensor.)
I didn't know about the MAP sensor on the Gen I.
I wouldn't expect that an internal electrode fracture would resolve itself and then get bad again but you never know. At least it is working for now.
Good luck!

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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by raYzerman » Tue May 21, 2019 2:59 pm

I did not know Gen1 had TWO MAP sensors (one under the seat)... Gen2 only had one on the fuel rail with vacuum line...... however, interestingly enough my Gen3 has TWO MAP sensors on the fuel rail..... one with a vacuum line, one open to atmosphere. Don't break one, they're pricey little bastages.

Back to the OP's problem. It was strange the entire exhaust system overheated, from the standpoint that (I think) all four cylinders were running rich. Or we could say not adequately firing to burn the mixture? All the plugs kinda look the same. Did the resistors break down in all 4, did both coils decide not to "put out" until they saw new plugs? Still a bit of mystery to me. Bad main engine ground? (right side lower engine case screw behind header)
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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by ericboutin » Wed May 22, 2019 12:08 am

Yes I've always said if it is gonna be mysterious and unusual I'm the one it happens to. I by no means am any kind of mechanic but I was wondering if the plugs had fouled out?....like two of them? logically to me that would explain the loss of power that I had for sure but it was weird that for a good portion of the trip on the way home it was back to "fine". Also would fouled plugs cause the crazy fuel consumption? Unfortunately we (the family and I) are taking a trip up north for a week so I won't be here to ride it anymore. I came out of retirement and took a job at my daughter's university (free tuition) and it's 58 miles away one way and I very much look forward to riding to work. I will let ya'll know if she continues to perform as she is now. Every time I walk by her I've been starting her up to make sure she is still behaving as expected and I'm happy to report she is still purring like a kitten and not crazy idling like before. Fingers crossed it's resolved. It would be cool to know what the heck caused all this but if she stays running right I guess I will forget about it. Lol.....Thanks again for ya'lls help!! Eric
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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by raYzerman » Wed May 22, 2019 8:09 am

Well, maybe we're getting somewhere.... you had discolouration in both sides..... two coils, if one malfunctions two cylinders are affected. Either 1 and 4 or 2 and 3.... one in each pipe. Check coil connections are clean and solid.
Now you can convert to a coil on plug system if you're so inclined, one coil for each plug.... I'll dig that up if you say the word.
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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by FJRoss » Wed May 22, 2019 8:14 am

Is the effect in one pipe vs both of any significance? The FJR exhaust is four into one into two - at least I assume that the two sides are not kept separate in the exhaust system??

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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by Hppants » Wed May 22, 2019 8:21 am

Good to read this is getting resolved. I'd say the proof is in the fuel mileage. Be interested to hear the numbers on that.

You got REAL luck with that EZ-out. Man, that could have been devastating. But I'll take luck over skill most days, especially when it comes to mechanics.

Good on ya!!
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Re: Sputter and Pipe discoloration

Post by ericboutin » Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:25 pm

Okie another update and I think after one more update this issue may be bedded. So far so good, I've been riding her around and she is still performing flawlessly! Better than she has in awhile honestly. I've got 130 miles on this tank and she still has 1 bar over half but I'll hold out judgement till I fill her up next.

The purpose of this post is to show y'all these pics. I went after those pipes today because I couldn't stand to see her all stained up....well this is the result of some elbow grease, I'm actually shocked they came out so good....I really thought I was gonna have to get some aftermarket pipes. I was actually looking forward to that but they came out so darn good!! Anyway without further ado.....ImageImageImageImageImage

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