Stall at cold start

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Jalingo
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Stall at cold start

Post by Jalingo »

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Hi la Famille 

hope everybody doing good and healthy

Heading to Ivan’s to reflash this upcoming Thursday and “AS IF BY CHANCE” my Sophie stalls at cold start !! 😡

Sophie has 44k miles , TBS done at roughly 35k , valve check/injectors cleaned at 38k , new battery,new spark plugs,done at 43k, fresh oil/filter roughly every 5k 

Sophie is kind of spoiled let’s say 

here’s the symptoms :

CODE 16 after pushing diagnostic mode
With d:61 codes 11 , 14 , 30 what this mean ? More problems ?
SOMETIMES at cold start, or after I leave it for a few hours 

bike switch on but no power , look like she’s dying , yellow check engine light come on and she dies ,

when I restart her few times and give her a couple of revs she gets back to normal ( no more check engine light, rpm goes back to idles fast till the 2 bars are reached and then idles normal )

recalls done : wire sub lead, main switch,eng perf W alt change 

recalls NOT done : wire harness assy, trunk base kit 

What makes me angry is that next week I’m going to Ivan’s and this happens 

Any advices , thanks for your future answers 

🙏🏼🙏🏼
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Re: Stall at cold start

Post by Road Runner »

First thing you want to do is erase the fault code history which is d61 . It is showing all codes that have happened since it was last cleared. To clear d61 go to d62 and cycle the stop switch. Now run it and see if a new fault code appears and you will know what is going on now.

The picture you are showing . You are in Diag. mode d01, which is showing the TPS value at idle, which should be 15-17 so it is fine.

As always make sure battery term are clean and tight.
"A biker never knows" - Tim Allen


Art
Jalingo
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Re: Stall at cold start

Post by Jalingo »

Road Runner wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:59 am First thing you want to do is erase the fault code history which is d61 . It is showing all codes that have happened since it was last cleared. To clear d61 go to d62 and cycle the stop switch. Now run it and see if a new fault code appears and you will know what is going on now.

The picture you are showing . You are in Diag. mode d01, which is showing the TPS value at idle, which should be 15-17 so it is fine.

As always make sure battery term are clean and tight.
Hi Road Runner thanks
I just reset the codes as you told me
D:61 shows 00
Bike started perfectly
What I should do now ? Wait and see if happens again ?
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Re: Stall at cold start

Post by FJRPittsburgh »

As Road Runner says: Make sure the battery terminals are clean and tight. Let us know what you find. Also battery will need to be checked and replaced if necessary.
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Jalingo
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Re: Stall at cold start

Post by Jalingo »

FJRPittsburgh wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:55 am As Road Runner says: Make sure the battery terminals are clean and tight. Let us know what you find. Also battery will need to be checked and replaced if necessary.
Hi mate ! Battery been replaced less than 3000 miles ago
Battery terminals are clean and tight
I’ll keep updated

2 questions please : should I still go to reflash at Ivan’s if I don’t have any problem from now on ?

Dealers still honor old recalls ?

Thanks
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Re: Stall at cold start

Post by ionbeam »

Yes, wait and see what happens. The ECU will set a code if any reading exceeds a preset limit, no matter how quickly it may come and go. Your FJR has been collecting codes for a while so they all may not be valid. Now that you have reset them, the next code to pop up will likely be a valid code.

Code 11 - No normal signal from cylinder identification sensor

Code 14 - Intake air pressure sensor hose plugged or disconnected

Code 16 - Throttle position sensor stuck.

Code 30 - Latch-up detected. No normal signal detected from lean angle sensor. (Has your FJR ever tipped on its side?)

When a sensor gives the ECU an out of range signal the ECU makes decisions based on the importance of the sensor that is out of range. The first level decision is CANNOT RUN, with a flashing check engine light or MAY OR MAY NOT RUN, depending on the code, with a solid check engine light. Next level are some codes which are UNABLE TO START/UNABLE TO RUN.

If the following codes are the result of an ongoing out of range sensor the following actions are taken by the ECU:

Code 11 - UNABLE TO START/UNABLE TO RUN with the check engine light flashing. Since you start and can run this is a transient code that isn't ongoing.

Code 14 - ABLE TO START/ABLE TO RUN. The hose going to the intake air pressure sensor is known to plug up and a cleaning will fix it.

Code 16 - ABLE TO START/ABLE TO RUN.

Code 30 - UNABLE TO START/UNABLE TO RUN with the check engine light flashing. Since you start and can run this is a transient code that isn't ongoing.

If you have other out of range codes the ECU will ignore the sensor and operate from a fixed table stored in memory. You will almost never notice/feel an operational issue when running off of the memory table.

Your cold stalling shouldn't be caused by any of the codes you found except perhaps the throttle position sensor. In fact, if the issue causing the stalling is related to an ECU sensor it should still continue to operate normally. Implying the issue is being caused by something other than an ECU sensor.

Since you have done a lot of maintenance I will ask if your throttle stop adjustment is at the limit, either up or down. It's not critical, but the next opportunity, check the intake air pressure hose. Don't stick anything in the intake air sensor hole, and do not spray anything into the sensor opening.

The throttle position sensor has been an issue on some bikes. The sensor has a long resistor with a wiper that tracks along the resistor as the throttle is moved. It should send a 0.7 to 4.7 volt signal to the ECU from idle at 0.7 volts and wide open throttle at ~4.7 volts. As roadrunner says,
Diag. mode d01, which is showing the TPS value at idle, which should be 15-17 so it is fine.
at d01 16 = 16% of throttle opening, which is the minimum throttle plate opening needed to keep the engine idling.

Again, as roadrunner says, just check diag to see if any codes come up again. If no codes come up, the ECU isn't seeing any errors so your cold start problem is outside of the ECU Fuel Injection Control loop. This may be a clogged filter in the fuel pump, a weak fuel pump, a spark plug wire disconnected inside the plug cap (easy fix) or something else like this which is outside the FI control loop.

Edit to add: You posted while I was typing.

Sure, go ahead with the Ivan reflash.

An old RECALL should be honored by a dealer because it affects safety. A TSB (Technical Service Bulletin) may not be honored because it isn't safety related. Some dealers will do an old TSB and others won't.
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Re: Stall at cold start

Post by raYzerman »

My guess is the MAP sensor (Intake Air Pressure) sensor hose or vacuum nipple at the sensor has some accumulated "wax"......
Ionbeam has covered it all, but see comments on Code 14 in particular....................
Codes 11, 16, 30 not likely to repeat.........

Go for the flash, no problem.

PS - if cold start and it doesn't warm up to one bar on the temp gauge, shutting it down (or stalling) may result in ECU thinking it still needs to be in enriched fuel mode.... if you have difficulty getting it started, hold the throttle wide open as you crank.... needs more air.
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Re: Stall at cold start

Post by ionbeam »

raYzerman wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:45 pm ...PS - if cold start and it doesn't warm up to one bar on the temp gauge, shutting it down (or stalling) may result in ECU thinking it still needs to be in enriched fuel mode.... if you have difficulty getting it started, hold the throttle wide open as you crank.... needs more air.
Current information doesn't support that the ECU is getting wrong information.
needs more air
Hence my asking about the throttle speed adjuster being completely out or completely in at its limits of travel as a result of TBS adjustments. This isn't uncommon to happen.

If the cold startup issues persist another thing to look at is the output of the coolant temp sensor. To which I will ask, have you checked the radiator fluid level to be sure it isn't low?
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Re: Stall at cold start

Post by Jalingo »

ionbeam wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 11:29 am Yes, wait and see what happens. The ECU will set a code if any reading exceeds a preset limit, no matter how quickly it may come and go. Your FJR has been collecting codes for a while so they all may not be valid. Now that you have reset them, the next code to pop up will likely be a valid code.

Code 11 - No normal signal from cylinder identification sensor

Code 14 - Intake air pressure sensor hose plugged or disconnected

Code 16 - Throttle position sensor stuck.

Code 30 - Latch-up detected. No normal signal detected from lean angle sensor. (Has your FJR ever tipped on its side?)

When a sensor gives the ECU an out of range signal the ECU makes decisions based on the importance of the sensor that is out of range. The first level decision is CANNOT RUN, with a flashing check engine light or MAY OR MAY NOT RUN, depending on the code, with a solid check engine light. Next level are some codes which are UNABLE TO START/UNABLE TO RUN.

If the following codes are the result of an ongoing out of range sensor the following actions are taken by the ECU:

Code 11 - UNABLE TO START/UNABLE TO RUN with the check engine light flashing. Since you start and can run this is a transient code that isn't ongoing.

Code 14 - ABLE TO START/ABLE TO RUN. The hose going to the intake air pressure sensor is known to plug up and a cleaning will fix it.

Code 16 - ABLE TO START/ABLE TO RUN.

Code 30 - UNABLE TO START/UNABLE TO RUN with the check engine light flashing. Since you start and can run this is a transient code that isn't ongoing.

If you have other out of range codes the ECU will ignore the sensor and operate from a fixed table stored in memory. You will almost never notice/feel an operational issue when running off of the memory table.

Your cold stalling shouldn't be caused by any of the codes you found except perhaps the throttle position sensor. In fact, if the issue causing the stalling is related to an ECU sensor it should still continue to operate normally. Implying the issue is being caused by something other than an ECU sensor.

Since you have done a lot of maintenance I will ask if your throttle stop adjustment is at the limit, either up or down. It's not critical, but the next opportunity, check the intake air pressure hose. Don't stick anything in the intake air sensor hole, and do not spray anything into the sensor opening.

The throttle position sensor has been an issue on some bikes. The sensor has a long resistor with a wiper that tracks along the resistor as the throttle is moved. It should send a 0.7 to 4.7 volt signal to the ECU from idle at 0.7 volts and wide open throttle at ~4.7 volts. As roadrunner says,
Diag. mode d01, which is showing the TPS value at idle, which should be 15-17 so it is fine.
at d01 16 = 16% of throttle opening, which is the minimum throttle plate opening needed to keep the engine idling.

Again, as roadrunner says, just check diag to see if any codes come up again. If no codes come up, the ECU isn't seeing any errors so your cold start problem is outside of the ECU Fuel Injection Control loop. This may be a clogged filter in the fuel pump, a weak fuel pump, a spark plug wire disconnected inside the plug cap (easy fix) or something else like this which is outside the FI control loop.

Edit to add: You posted while I was typing.

Sure, go ahead with the Ivan reflash.

An old RECALL should be honored by a dealer because it affects safety. A TSB (Technical Service Bulletin) may not be honored because it isn't safety related. Some dealers will do an old TSB and others won't.
Thanks IonBeam for all your explanations
I’ll check the intake pressure hose and see if it’s clogged or so
If there’s no code within those upcoming days I’ll see slowly elsewhere
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Re: Stall at cold start

Post by raYzerman »

Sounded to me like it just idles crappy when he starts it... thus my guess of the MAP sensor. If it dies then won't start, then it may be in cold start mode and need air.... not the case so far.
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Re: Stall at cold start

Post by Jalingo »

raYzerman wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:45 pm My guess is the MAP sensor (Intake Air Pressure) sensor hose or vacuum nipple at the sensor has some accumulated "wax"......
Ionbeam has covered it all, but see comments on Code 14 in particular....................
Codes 11, 16, 30 not likely to repeat.........

Go for the flash, no problem.

PS - if cold start and it doesn't warm up to one bar on the temp gauge, shutting it down (or stalling) may result in ECU thinking it still needs to be in enriched fuel mode.... if you have difficulty getting it started, hold the throttle wide open as you crank.... needs more air.
Is exactly what I do
I hold the throttle open or Rev few time and then not stalling no more
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Re: Stall at cold start

Post by Jalingo »

ionbeam wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:58 pm
raYzerman wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 3:45 pm ...PS - if cold start and it doesn't warm up to one bar on the temp gauge, shutting it down (or stalling) may result in ECU thinking it still needs to be in enriched fuel mode.... if you have difficulty getting it started, hold the throttle wide open as you crank.... needs more air.
Current information doesn't support that the ECU is getting wrong information.
needs more air
Hence my asking about the throttle speed adjuster being completely out or completely in at its limits of travel as a result of TBS adjustments. This isn't uncommon to happen.

If the cold startup issues persist another thing to look at is the output of the coolant temp sensor. To which I will ask, have you checked the radiator fluid level to be sure it isn't low?
Coolant level is fine
Coolant level act like it should be
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Re: Stall at cold start

Post by Jalingo »

I’ll check tonight again
And hope that I can make it to Ivan’s this upcoming Thursday

Have an appointment with him Saturday 19th
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Re: Stall at cold start

Post by FJRoss »

Hose to MAP sensor plugged.
Have a look at this thread on the other forum
https://www.fjrforum.com/topic/170314-f ... nt-1345182
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Re: Stall at cold start

Post by Jalingo »

FJRoss wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:06 pm Hose to MAP sensor plugged.
Have a look at this thread on the other forum
https://www.fjrforum.com/topic/170314-f ... nt-1345182
Hi Ross
Interesting topic
My bike is outside right now , and my garage is not at home
Weather is so so , I’m scared if I start to dismount now water will come from above

I’ll keep reading and see🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼
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Re: Stall at cold start

Post by Jalingo »

FJRoss wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 6:06 pm Hose to MAP sensor plugged.
Have a look at this thread on the other forum
https://www.fjrforum.com/topic/170314-f ... nt-1345182
Ross the pressure sensor hose is under tank connected to the MAP sensor right ?
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Re: Stall at cold start

Post by FJRoss »

Have a look at the following. One is from the service manual and the other is from an on-line parts fiche. The part is actually called the Intake Air Pressure Sensor although people often refer to it as a MAP sensor (Manifold Absolute Pressure). The hose that was plugged on mine was the hose that comes directly from the sensor itself to the network of other hoses and fittings.
Sensor is Part #12 in the top diagram from the manual and #17 in the lower diagram from a parts fiche. I checked and cleaned the other hoses and the fittings but only found residue in the one. I think it was hose #12 in the second diagram but it isn't very clear.

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Re: Stall at cold start

Post by ionbeam »

Pre-edit: I see Ross posted the parts diagram for the sensor and hose while I was typing. I'm omitting the diagram and just posting the following:

The Atmospheric Pressure Sensor hose is under the tank and runs between the intake manifold and the Atmospheric Pressure Sensor.

If you go to diag code 03 you can turn the run/stop switch to run (red toggle on the right handlebar) then press the start button, per the FSM, if the diag value changes the sensor and hose are good. If the reading doesn't change it strongly points to the sensor hose. IMO, even if it does change it doesn't fully exonerate the hose.
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Re: Stall at cold start

Post by Jalingo »

ionbeam wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:27 pm Pre-edit: I see Ross posted the parts diagram for the sensor and hose while I was typing. I'm omitting the diagram and just posting the following:

The Atmospheric Pressure Sensor hose is under the tank and runs between the intake manifold and the Atmospheric Pressure Sensor.

If you go to diag code 03 you can turn the run/stop switch to run (red toggle on the right handlebar) then press the start button, per the FSM, if the diag value changes the sensor and hose are good. If the reading doesn't change it strongly points to the sensor hose. IMO, even if it does change it doesn't fully exonerate the hose.
Did the diag code 03
The number changed when I was pushing the start
The bike kept wanting to start but not ( guess is normal)

Tomorrow morning I’ll clean the intake and see what’s inside there
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Re: Stall at cold start

Post by ionbeam »

Jalingo wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:12 pm Did the diag code 03
The number changed when I was pushing the start
The bike kept wanting to start but not ( guess is normal)...
When in the diag mode none of the codes will allow the engine to start.
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